Ideas which did not make it into T2002(X)

Karsten
http://www.pekaro.de
02.10.14
We will keep an eye on this
Lukasz
02.10.14
My idea is to make 3 backgrounds:
first two are the ones you have already used, bmp, and background moving 2x slower.
I would add one more background that moves with the same speed as foreground. Foreground would apear before the sprites, so turrican and enemies would hide behind columns, treez and other things that are ignorable on the foreground. Cave background would apear on that new background, so there would be no need for "cave" tile.

If it was possible I would use almost every sprite from Turrican 1 and 2.
Some Bosses would need improvement, I can offer you my help about creating sprite images (already made some

I can offer you every World maps form my levelpacks "Mprgul Returns" and Turricane 3.5".
It would be the best to use maps from Turrican 1 and 2.
You can also use my worlds from these levelpacks.

New things I would add are barriers with keys you have to receive to open them. That would add new need to explore in search of the item.

That is my idea for now. Anyway! I would REALY like to see Morgul in that game. I already made my own version of that antagonist
Liam Fay
03.10.14
Don't know if it's a bug or not, but the second (Mandatory) boss, the Gripper, is extremely frustrating. It never exposes it's weak points, and it's very hard to hit them even when it does. Is this suppose to be the functional boss, or was it not like this before?
Dark
03.10.14
@Liam, I'm not sure what you mean about the gripper not exposing it's weakspots. You should be able to shoot off all the guns as it moves up and down passed you, then shoot the center of it's body. You can sometimes (depending upon the arena), hit it with the surround shot when it comes in close to grab you and do lots of damage, but this isn't necessary you should still be able to just chip away as it moves.

@Lukasz, to your comments in the other thread, I'd love to try Rough n tumble, unfortunately I never played it back on the Amiga and while I've heard rumours of a remake I've never seen one, I know there was a smart phone version but when I tried it it didn't seem to run.

as to T2002 I like Lukasz ideas here, however there are some I would add.

First, the temporary flight power up. Make it activatable by a level element, say a switch Turrican could touch rather than just a floating power up. At the moment it's great for secrets, but the problem is it can't really be used for level progress because miss the power up and woopse! and Turrican flying with his jetpack in a platform stage is so lovely as a mechanic it really should be used more, (it is possible this can already be done in T2002, I've seen some occasions where something like it happens in some of Lukasz stages, but it'd be nice if it was official).

Second, as I said in the other thread, more control over ledge movement and types. Some great things have been done with moving lifts, but there is scope for more, ledges that move to a set pattern round a track, ledges that explode after moving a certain distance (like T2's final level), perhaps even the dreaded vanishing ledges of Mega man. As a related point have ledges which crumble under foot reset when off screen sinse like the flying power up again this limits their use in levels.

Third, define painful groups of tyles and have controls over their movement. yes, I know that it is currently possible to set tyles to "damage" and thus create lava, spikes etc, however obviously not all environmental hazards stay still. We already have dropping acid, those bouncing ball enemies from T1, and occasionally spouting flame pillars, but there is again more that could be added. Rather than trying to add lots of different things however why not just give level creators the chance to make their own.

Bouncing lava balls mario style, circling spike balls, vanishing spikes ala Turrican 1 world 1, undestroyable canons shooting nasty stuff that players need to avoid etc. All could be done by simply marking out a group of tyles as "damaging" and defining whether it moves horizontally or vertically, whether it is perminantly on screen or occasionally off screen, and how frequently it moves. I suspect if this gets added I'll regret making this suggestion pretty soon .

Fourth, how about more weapons to play with? In particular I'm thinking that Turrican currently has no mid range attacks, everything is long range (including the surround shot once upgraded). How about a close range melee attack, a short range grenade style weapon (ie, it flies out a bit and explodes), or a wall crawler weapon similar to the scythe in Ghouls N Ghosts. I'd also suggest restoring Wheel bombs to their T2 function and either removing the grenade in favour of the T2 maximized weapon system, or down powering it a little from the screen clearer it currently is.

Fifth, How about some more enemies? in particular I'm thinking some larger, metroid style enemies as a contrast to the current smaller ones. Turrican had larger enemies occasionally, the rolling wheels, flying skulls etc, and it's always nice to see something that can't just be killed before it hits with a swing of the surround shot. I'm not exactly sure how extensive the enemy database is (sinse some level creators have done a great job at repackaging old enemies), but it'd be nice to see some editions to play with, particularly if they exhibited some new behaviours.

Sixth, Background effect and lighting changes. I don't exactly know how this happens in graphic terms, but I know there were bits of original Turrican that surprised me with changing things up which didn't make it into T2002, or at least which have only been done by people who really mangle the engine like Bronko's creation of a flashing background in Under earth or Ruv in T all creating a flashing siren effect. things like the rather crude but still effective lighting change as you go down to caves in T1, the Lightning storm in world 2, the way that the water in the swimming stage of T3 slowly changes colour as you get deeper and deeper down. I'm not sure what graphically is going on here, whether it's something about background change, alterations of lighting effects or whatever, but it was something I always liked in Atmospheric terms.

I know I might have been overly crytical of T2002 here, but I really do! love the game, particularly with the many extra levels and have spent many hours on it, indeed I've probably spent more time playing T2002 and accompanying level packs than original Turrican games, so I hope these comments don't come across as too dissatisfied.

Lastly, How about a boss creator. I admit this one is a little speculatory and might not be possible, after all while I do understand something of game mechanics I could be utterly wrong on how the engine works.

It just strikes me if we look at all turrican bosses they are basicaly similar, and you could define what they do in a roughly broard set of characteristics which could be freely defined by the level's creator.

how I imagine this working is as follows:

1: Define sprite/group of tyles.
2: Define where on sprite the weakness is, ie, where you have to shoot the boss to damage it (if the boss is of the "Expose
3: Define where on bos sprite (if anywhere), shots come out, plus define sprites for shots.

4: Choose a movement pattern for the boss sprite and set it's speed. Possible choices could include static, back and fourth with turn, (the walker), back and fourth without turn (the ship or the world 4 boss of T1), continual advance (the crusher boss), or advance/retreat (the fish), up and down (the gripper), jumping, homing attack (the fist), circling (the hypercycle boss or Morgul), etc, also define when (if necessary), the boss goes into weakness mode.

Obviously this system would have limitations on what could be created, but it would at least let people design their own bosses from sets of charateristics. For example if someone wanted a tank that moved continually forward and back which you had to jump over to shoot from the back which shot out a spreadshot like attack, well that would be a completely new boss yet could be defined from a set of pre-created characteristics.

As I said, while I am familiar with game mechanics this idea might be totally impossible. For example I don't know whether animations are part of the boss sprite or need doing in the engine, or even what the exact relationship of the boss's actual sprite is to the underlying tyles in the engine, still this is the place for ideas so there you go .
TheFinalFighter
03.10.14
@Dark:
> @Liam, I'm not sure what you mean about the gripper not exposing it's weakspots.

You definitely didn't play T2002X for long enough to fight this one boss. It just never moves down, thus the three guns in the upper part are never reachable.

Sorry for being off-topic, I'd also like to notice that I already reported that bug in the original T2002X thread.
Liam Fay
03.10.14
Well the thing is, it hardly ever moved up and down when I played it. I never really got a chance to see it's weak points. Is the boss supposed to not expose them that much?
Dark
03.10.14
Sorry. I didn't realize that Bronko's Tstarter was still using T2002.exe to launche the other levelpacks rather than T2002x.exe, so while I tried the initial first sage of T2002, when I went to play stage 2 I used Tstarter and thus got the wrong exe file so saw the older version of the gripper which of course works fine.
Liam Fay
04.10.14
And this is totally unrelated, but would it be possible to have one of those battleship levels in a shmup stage? You know, when you're a single small ship up against an entire army? I'm interested in doing one. Example
Lukasz
07.10.14
Another good idea would be moving blocks with you could push or pull to make yourself a stairs to unreachable ledges

Would be also nice to improve fly up/fly right option with fly down/fly right speed up! This way you could make two jetpack levels like in Turrican 1 and speed ship level like the last flight level in Turrican 2.
dark
07.10.14
@Liam, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "battle a hole army" other than putting lots of enemies into one level. I'm not sure if the T2002 engine has enough enemies for that effect, though it might do.

I agree with you about the flight levels Lukasz, it is a shame that you only fly in one of two directions. It might also be nice to have the ability to make some smaller blocks scroll across the screen faster as well, say if you wanted to have the player fly through a swarm off asteroids or oncoming missiles.

I'm not sure how you would create pull blocks in Turrican, sinse generally you need something to pull them with which might involve creating more weapons than we need, though I suppose a robot arm/t3 grapple would do the job.

Push blocks might be a possibility, although the worry there is creating elements that it'd be too easy to get wrong and have the player put in an unwinnable state.

One idea that would be nice might be having the traction of ledges change. Currently we have wind that can push the player in one or other direction, water currents and conveyers, but we don't have for example ice which would increase your stopping distance, or sand which would decrease over all walking speed.

One other idea I had, is currently Turrican's free moving water mode always comes with the water effect, ie, it can only happen in an underwater level.

It might be cool if there could be zones in levels with the full verticle movement, but without the bubbles or water effects, say if you wanted to have a zero gravity zone set on the surface of a planet like the moon, or a volcano level with zones of hot steam jets.

I always enjoy levels that change up gameplay and have you going from one mode to the other quite freely rather than a big zone of water, then some walking then visa versa, and by illiminating the need for water and allowing free movement in other environments you could increase that for level designers.

speaking of changing up movement, I loved that section in T All when you go from walking normally to a flying jetpack with screen scrolling. Again, variety is awsome!
Liam Fay
08.10.14
Basically, the "army" level is where you're fighting off a bunch of gigantic warships. R Type's 3rd level was an "army" level, and Rendering Ranger has one as well.
dark
08.10.14
Ah, I see what you mean. R-type 3rd level is indeed very cool, though again this is an instance where being able to scroll more directions might help sinse you'd be able to see more of the battle ship you were fighting.

There have been some pretty cool T3 Air combat style levels where your jumping between a fleet of flying ships or air bikes, i particularly like the Morgul Returns Factory stage for this sinse you ascend from the bowels of the factoryb up into the air and finish off jumping through many airbikes before fighting a large space ship (it's a redressed Gripper but still fun).

I think to get the affect your talking about we'd probably also need more bigger enemies, sinse the largest enemies we have in T2002 currently seem to be those flying shooting troopers from T1.

if the enemy list included more larger enemies with different attack patterns it would be possible for a level designer to redress them for a spaceship level, for example if we had Metroid style Dragons leaping out of lava firing large bursts of flaime they could be converted into mecha turrets, ditto with R-type style wall walker cannons, (the ones that got to the player's position and fired off), or those huge floating spherical ships from Super R-type's second stage which explode into bits when you hit them.

While I know that Turrican's gameplay has always been high action with large numbers of small enemies on screen, there's no reason not to expand the enemy database so that you could change things up occasionally, heck T3 did with the greater proportion of larger enemies.
Liam Fay
08.10.14
I think I may have an idea: Have the level be made up of MULTIPLE airships, and have the airships be coded like this:
The ships themselves should be solid walls - However, I would decorate them with a tileset that made them LOOK like an airship.

Dark
09.10.14
That's already been done in several levels, boh flying ones and normal ones like Air Combat from T3. my favourite flying stage, The Asteroid belt from Lukasz Turricane 3.5 already has many asteroids and those huge mining platform spaceship things.
Liam Fay
09.10.14
Oh. And here I thought I finally came up with something original
Dark
09.10.14
I think when the level editer runs with T2002 X so you can play the custom made stages, you will be quite amazed at some of the things that have been done with T2002.
Lukasz
09.10.14
War Ships from R-Type are not solid walls but act in special ways and have destroyable parts. In T2002 something like that could not apear. For me the way I used in Turricane 3.5 or Metroidican-X is the only solution.

If there are to be some changes not in Turrican style we would have to reach to other platformer style games.
Ruff n Tumble, Shadow of the Beast and ofcours Metroid.
Dark
09.10.14
I'm not sure if my above suggestion about designating moving harmful tyles would help create more elements for a spaceship level, sinse then you could have more than just redressed flame bursts as environmental hangers, for example if you wanted a level where bullets were continually fired across the screen like Super R-Type stage 2.

As regards taking inspiration from other games, I'm still in favour of expanding the enemy database with some new types even if their sprites need taking from other games, particularly larger, harder to kill enemies so as to change up the action from the usual swarms.

I don't mean bosses here, just larger, standard enemies.

In R-type terms I was thinking of those walking cannons that would walk across the screen, get to the player's position and fire off a fairly big beam, so needed to be taken out especially.
Liam Fay
10.10.14
I wasn't thinking of one big airship in particular, but a fleet of decently sized ones (well, normal walls that just look like one, which is what I'm going to) moving just as normal walls would - slowly to the left. I would decorate the walls with little cannons that look like they're part of the airships.
Dark
10.10.14
You would need to wangle with the sprites I believe, but I'm pretty sure you could do that already as is, though getting the various standard stationary shooting enemies to look like part of airships could be interesting.
dark
14.10.14
Here's another thought for a new T2002 game, and something which has come up in discussion before. Diamonds!

In original T2002 the diamonds had the save to level, though with the editer saving automatically this became unnecessary. I personally much preferd saving to level sinse it let you play thrugh a full pack more correctly, but I still feel diamonds should do more. The summoning of a helper refill drone at 100 was a nice idea however it was too easy for the drone to get lost if you fell down from a hight that it couldn't follow, and after that point ther diamonds were a little useless.

so, how about some alternative functions for diamonds?

First, like Hurrican have the diamonds reset the game's time at a certain amount. I was never a fan of time in Turrican anyway, and using diamonds would balance the exploring but still keep the mechanic, and make collecting diamonds and discovering them have a point.

Another suggestion, how about going back to something closer to the diamonds original purpose and having them used to gain lives, say one life every hundred.

As a final thought, the nurse drone was a great idea, and only lacked the problem that if it got lost it was hard to summon back. So, how about extending that idea a bit and adding several drones to the game, which would effectively be a perminant power aadvantage staying with you even when losing lives (like the nurse drone), with them awarded for different amounts of diamonds. I do recall that one of the suggested Turrican games featured drones, and of course games like Alisia Dragoon had them in plenty so I don't think it would be altering the Turrican formula too much, particularly sinse the drones would be very much a special that you'd really need to work at exploring and diamond grabbing to find.

So, for example, have a nurse drone at 100 diamonds functioning like now (though perhaps with a summon back button to recall it when off screen).

Then, maybe some R-type style floating mines, that remained close to your character and damaged enemies when they came in contact, say one above your head at 200 Diamonds, and one below your feet at 300.

At 400, have a shooting drone that shoots standard shots at your enemies, meaning even if you have level 1 weapons you still have some extra fire power, and at 400 make that two shooting drones, and at 500 make this two shooting drones, one above your head one under your feet giving you more fire power.

There are probably other ways you could design drones but you see my thought with this, give the player some major advantages through the exploration and diamond collecting that remain all through the level, (though of course drones would vanish at the end of the level meaning you needd to grab diamonds again).

While we're on the subject, another miner change I would like to see is the ability to turn off time as an option. I personally always thought the only reason the Turrican games docked you a life every few minutes was because that was standard practice for games at the time. For games where the exploring was always the thing it seemed a little unfare and when you have level designers creating their own stages, some of which are truly gigantic, it really seems off.

If people think this is too much like a cheat, try the diamond idea for time reset (although personally I would like to see the drones more), or maybe give level designers the ability to specify their own time limits for a stage.
Liam Fay
14.10.14
Super Turrican NES had the 1-life-per-100-diamonds rule, which made the game easier (Or should I say, NOT IMPOSSIBLE.) I think that more uses with diamonds is an amazing idea! Although I think that the little pod things like in R type would look a little awkward. Perhaps have them rotate around Turrican, like it does in Cybernoid II.
dark
14.10.14
I didn't mean literally the sprites of the mines from r-type, I'm not sure what sprites you'd use, I just meant the principle.

As to rotating drones, that would be good, though it'd be hard to balance that. from a gameplay perspective what I always find interesting in hovering drones, whether shooting or not is maneuvering your character into a position where they will help you against enemies, not just getting close but jumping up correctly or not.

I'm not sure if revolving drones wouldn't make that process a little too easy, sinse while you'd still need to get close you wouldn't have to maneuver quite as much.

I would suggest shield drones of some sort, perhaps one behind you or above you to absorb enemy hits rather than destroy them but I don't know if that would be messing with the Turrican mechanics too much, sinse while I'm definitely in favour of extending the game with more weapons and abilities, the way that T2 got the bounce shot, wheel bombs and multiweapon attack, it is important that additions fit with the game's basic Turrican style feeling.

I do credit Hurrican for doing this, although I don't like the way in Hurrican so many enemies can crawl under the bounce or anything but the top level laser, which takes the effectiveness out of those weapons, but hay there is always room for more.

Btw, not played any of the Cybernoid games, though I do once remember playing a rather fun retro remake of the first one.
Dark
16.10.14
Okay, here are a couple more ideas.

First, a very simple one, look buttons. Either have specific controls (say pg up and down), or have holding of the arrows scroll the screen up or down a bit the way Hurrican, Robocod and several other games had.

The reason I'd particularly like to see this in Turrican, is that with the amount of verticle travel, it would be a real help. After all when your looking for that one lift to get upwards or where a certain ledge might be looking up could be really useful. Likewise, I've often lost lives when I've fallen down a ways, believe there is further to fall only to find an abyss below me and to plummet to my doom! If however there was a look down key and I could see that the screen would scroll no further, then I'd know it was dangerous to drop off.

Another thought is the idea you had in the T2002 Gba version, a map that filled itself in as you went. I don't like the idea of Turrican having a complete Metroid style full scale overview of the hole level as that would make exploring far too easy, and indeed negate that wonderful feeling of "so what happens if I check this way?" that has always made Turrican such a very addictive game, however I do think a map showing where you have been could help, sinse the down side to that exploration is when your in an area you aren't sure whether you've been through before or not. Of course you can tell by whether there are enemies or not, but this isn't obviously always a guarantee sinse either you could be in a quieter area or you might not have killed every single enemy in a certain part of the level, so a map that filled in as you explored and showed your current position would be helpful for this, though as I said I still definitely think it should only show where you've already explored and nothing else.
Dark
16.10.14
Okay, this is another miner point but it's something I find a bit of a niggle in T2002.

Sound effects! I really miss in T2002 the different sounds for the upgrades of laser and bounce, and also the ability to have a different exit theme for each level the way the original Turrican games did.

This was one of the things I noticed in Turrican forever that I liked, but if we're talking about a completely new T2002, why not have these as well?
Dark
19.10.14
And while we're on the crazy ideas, here are a couple more.

First, Spawn points for enemies.

At the moment I believe enemies are just placed directly onto the level map by it's creator, meaning that roughly speaking you get the same frequency of enemies all the way through, and if you have to backtrack through somewhere you have already been, odds are it will be empty of enemies because you've killed them all.

Well, why not change this up? What I'm thinking here is you could mark areas on the level map in the editer which would have new enemies spawned on the level everytime Turrican crossed them. There would be several uses for this, most prominantly making back tracking less boring (going along with lukasz key and barrier suggestion). But also they could have other uses, for example suppose you marked out different tyles in the floor and had a bunch of those nasty wheels drop everytime Turrican stood on one, or suppose you had a oneup which you could go and collect but then a hole bunch of nasties jumped on you after grabbing it. this would also work with my bigger enemies idea, especially in creating more traps.

This next idea is a little loopy, and I admit might be either impossible in terms of coding, or might be too much of a change to Turrican.

Teleporters/doors in the background that take you to either different parts of the same level, or different sub levels. What I'm thinking here are doors in the background like those in games like Mario brothers 2, (the usa one with choice of four characters),Kirby superstar or Mega man zero, where you can pass in front of them and choose to enter.

These could serve in several ways, either to give you a greater idea of progressing through an area, sinse who wouldn't actually want to go deeper and deeper into Morgul's tower not just up and down it, could be used to make caves which you could enter in a ruins level, or could be used directly as teleporters to create more interesting mazes.

I always admired Mario 2 particularly for this, being able to have you go inside and outside a large structure like a tree or a wall and have some quite clever connections between the areas, and sinse Turrican is all about exploration why not have this element too, provided of course it wouldn't as I said, either be impossible to code or be not a Turrican style mechanic.
Liam Fay
19.10.14
Well Dark, the problem with respawning enemies is that in a huge level where it's easy to get lost, enemies not respawning would tell you "hey, I have already been here!" And when you see an are with new enemies, you would think "Hey, I haven't been here before!" But with respawning enemies, it would be very hard to tell if you're in a new area or in a old area. If it weren't for unrespawning enemies, I would have never gotten past 5-1 in Super Turrican NES. Just my personal opinion.
Dark
19.10.14
That is true Liam, though if my map suggestion (see above), were implemented it might not be a problem. Also, note that I said respawn points set by the level designer, not to make all enemies respawn the way enemies in something like Mega man or Gunstar Heroes doo. So for example say you had a long corridor with various small passages above it (like the start of the second factory stage by Pecaro). You could set some enemy respawn points in the corridor so that when you were going up and down it checking different passages above you you didn't get board, but then have the main enemies killed in the exits you were checking.

I also would say being clear in direction is part of good level design not responsability of the coding.

For example, a level designer could place some none respawning enemies to show you you were going the right way, or use different colours and types of walls to keep the design variable enough that you can recognize where you have been before, just like Pecaro level 2.
Dark
20.10.14
Okay, here are a couple more crazy suggestions.

First, controllable gravity in a level, or at least in a region of a level such as a water or mud pit or windy area. This was something I liked in Hurrican, that movements in liquids was slowed in addition to swimming, but liquid movement might not be the only time you want higher or lower gravity, for example how about a space level high in the air where gravity is less, or similating the force of a fast moving vehicle by having gravity increase.

What I'm thinking here is that for either the hole level or a part of it gravity could be set as a variable that affects jump hight and distance and walking/wheel speed. I know it is already possible to do some of this with wind, but why not give full control?

As another loopy suggestion, how about being able to place sound sources in a level. I loved the way that in hurrican you could hear when coming up to water falls or conveyers or something. Well, it'd probably be a pain to create a bunch of objects with their own sounds, so why not just have the ability to place sound sources on the level map and for the designer to decide whether they wanted the sound sources to increase in volume as you approached them, or to be immediately audible as you passed. The second type would be handy for say creating a new mood if you fell onto a conveyer belt or platform that started sinking, or for creating actual spoken pannels giving directions, tutorial instructions or story driven dialogue, ---- I loved this feature in the demo of the Jack raiser game and while I agree full scale npc interactions rpg style is a bit more than Turrican needs, an Assassin like "proceed right!" or "arm your assault ssute" the way Super Turrican 2 did might be nice. And of course who didn't love that evil alarm sound when T3 bosses appeared, and heck if anyone wants some voice acting done for a Turrican project I'd be glad to oblige.
Lukasz
20.10.14
How about two diferent types of turrican sprite? One from T2 with flame thrower, and the second one from T3 and ST with ninja rope. Each have his own way to pass thru every level, and fight in diferent locations with diferent boss!
dark
22.10.14
Interesting thought Lukasz, though i confess I didn't like the cyber arm in st2, as you didn't get much control over it, you just shot it out, it grabbed a ledge or a wall then you could go on by just hammering the button, and far too many levels of St2 substituted streight grapling for propper platforming and exploring.

if a new Turrican game were to have a grapple, i'd personally prefer it to be a T3 style rope that you had to actually direct and lock on to objects, could swing around to build momentum then take a single jump off.

Actually, I wonder given that most Turrican sprites have the arm moving animations either for the surround shot or the grapple from T3 if it would be possible to include both the surround shot and grapple line in one level and thus have the best of both. St2 tried this, though unfortunately in converting the surround shot to a very temporary freeze laser it was made less than effective.

Say, have the control key fire weapons when pressed, or be held to activate the surround, and then have holding the shift key as the grapple mode button, leading into a T3 style aimeable grapple rope to shoot. This would also make the control easier sinse instead of that rather clunky T3 setup where you had to hold the button to get the rope to flash before jumping off, with a separate grapple button you could just hold to continue the grapple and release to let go and swing off like the Grapple beam in Metroid or the whip hanging in Suepr Castlevania, (if fire was a separate button you could shoot while doing it too).

The only issue would be whether level designers should have the ability to disable grapple if they wanted a streight up T2 style level, though to be honest I like the idea of mixing up Turrican gameplay with new stuff as I said above, new weapons, powers etc, and I don't see that an aimeable T3 style grapple would change the standard T2 style gameplay too much, it'd just add possible new situations to explore, for example replicating some of those grapple rooms from super Metroid in a new MEtroidican or being able to hide things over pits that you needed to grapple across the Ceiling to rech.
Lukasz
22.10.14
My idea is to create blocks that can be only destroyed by flame thrower, and create areas reachable only by grapple.

And dont mention that Super Turrican 2 mistake :/ I liked music, graphics, some sprites but none level!
By grapple Turrican I ment only the one from Mega Turrican.
Liam Fay
23.10.14
I wouldn't call it a mistake, (It's still technically one of the most graphically advanced games on the SNES) but it definitely didn't feel like a proper Turrican game.

But I do recommend using ST2's grapple, because it's just frankly so much easier to use than MT's. You don't have to aim it, and from what I've seen on T3/MT videos, people don't like the rope very much. However, people generally accepted the ST2 rope alot more. So, I at least suggest that if we're to include the rope, at least make it a bit easier to use. I respect Lukasz's views on ST2, so I recommend using a modified version of the T3 rope.
Liam Fay
23.10.14
As in, maybe instead of directing it's direction like the surround beam, perhaps hold down the direction in which you want to aim it (Like aiming in Contra.) It's still like the original T3 rope, but easier to use.
Dark
23.10.14
@Lukasz, interesting idea with two different turrican styles, sort of like two different characters and with having blocks that can only be destroyed with surround shot. A nice way to get replay value in levels especially if you could choose which turrican suit before you started. The only thing is, the surround shot is useful for other things than just block destroying, and makes gameplay unique giving you more weapons to play with, I always felt the games that lacked it (including St2 sinse it was made so useless), were missing a vital part of Turrican's tactical gameplay. So, if two characters were developed they need equal offensive capability as well as equal ability to blow up blocks. For example maybe the version of Turrican with the rope has a short range energy sword that can be aimed and hit in 8 directions, (shift and arrows), and collecting surround power ups increase the power of the sword though not it's length which remains as short as the unupgraded surround shot.

@Liam, I disagree on the St2 arm, sinse it was so easy to use even in a propperly designed level it couldn't be used to hide any secrets, you just jump up and hit the grapple button, keep hammering the button to climb across the ceiling, no need for calculating jumps or clever ledge placement or all of the things Turrican does well.

I would suggest making the rope a little less clunky to use than in T3, for example a single grapple button to shoot as I said then hold to swing and let go, but I wouldn't want it more automated. I have not played Contra so don't exactly get what you mean with the mechanics there, though even if you simplified the aiming from T3, say with streight up hold to aime in a 90 or 45 degree angle, I'd still want the need to hold, swing and let go, and to be honest I don't see why we couldn't have the T3 style analogue aiming, sinse hay everything else jump wise in Turrican needs fine calculation (it is one of the things that makes the series so addictive, learning how best to jump across each gap to reach different parts of the level).

Liam Fay
24.10.14
In contra, you simply hold up if you want to aim up. It's as simple as that. You want to aim diagonal? Hold up/left or up/right. That's what I meant. What you suggested was pretty much the exact same as what I said, from what I've read so far.
Dark
24.10.14
Ah, Liam, I get you, sounds like the chain rod from mega man zero 2 or the grapple beam from super metroid.

I could see that in a Turrican game, though I'm still not sure if it would be correct or not. In T3 the grapple was sort of a limited use thing, you got to the edge of a ledge, looked around you, calculated angle for grapple and fired, all of the basic jumping and shooting action was the same, as was the exploring, it's just that by having grapple as a little extra it let you think about where you were going and where and what angle to use the grapple and what hidden places it could take you to. In mmz2 (and to an extent Super Metroid though there the grapple only could hitcertain blocks), the grapple was more a fast action thing, part of the fluid movement options given to you in the game especially with the mega man x and zero trick of wall climbing.

Turrican has always been about the exploring and fighting hoards of enemies, not mastering complex button sequences and techniques, more to the marrio than sonic the hedgehog end of platformers, though the advantage of having that sort of rapple is that you could make it an attack and thus have Lukasz idea of it being equal in offense with the surround, and also you could use it (as Mmz2 did), to pull blocks as Lukasz was suggesting earlier.

I'm really not sure on this one which style of grapple, if any would be best.

While we are talking in terms of stuff from other games though, in particular Mega man, how about a charge shot? I said above more weapons in Turrican would be nice, and it's something that Hurrican included, even if in a limited form. I personally would love to see charged versions of standard weapons that give more powerful versions which play to their strengths, for example a charged spreadshot that shot a larger volley covering most of the screen, a charged bounce that filled the place with a bunche of standard bounce shots, and a charged laser that was just a hugely powerful blast, although the Hurrican lightning which you had to charge and aime while standing still was interesting.

Of course this would get harder if (as I hope), more standard weapons get included in the game, but it is a possibility I'd be interested in seeing, particularly if we see some larger and more powerful standard enemies meaning that you would need to balance using your big charge shot to take them out and using standard shots and surround to take out swarms of smaller enemies.

Going back to my diamonds suggestion, you could even tie charge shot power to this, by having charge shot as a reward for collecting a certain number of diamonds and increasing in power as you got more (though I did also rather like the drone idea I mentioned above).

Lastly, how about a very simple suggestion. At the moment all power squares are random in what power up you get which is as it should be, indeed I dislike Hurrican and Super Turrican 2 for always giving you the same power ups (in st2 this was particularly bad and another reason the game felt like it ran on rails). However there might be circumstances where a level designer could want to make sure the player had a given weapon for a given situation, for example if you were going to have a block labyrinth like in T1 5-2, give the player the bounce weapon, or if you were going to have a long corridor of blocks to blow through give the player the laser.

of course as an alternative you could do as Hurrican and Turrican Forever do and let you hit the tab key to switch weapons, which might also be a nice idea if new weapons were in the game.
Dark
31.10.14
I had a go at strider last week, and it gave me another thought. Sloping ledges that you could slip down.

One of the most truly unique things about Turrican as a side scrolling platformer, was just how small ledges could be. Where as Metroid, the smallest possible ledge type that could be stood on was roughly a quarter of Samus' foot, in Turrican the fraction is much smaller. Also, ledges in Turrican are not regular. Rock feels! like rock, with many tiny crevices and indentations, for example look at the slopes in T2 world 1. Same with the machinary in the factory, you can really get court up amid those tiny rivets and cogs. It's one thing that makes Turrican's platforming so unique and why it can create addictive levels, sinse you don't just jump in set patterns. The one thing Turrican doesn't have however, are angled slopes to literally slide down. You can get a similar affect with conveyers or wind, but slopes would give even the basic rock climbing some meaning sinse you couldn't just jump to a point and stick, but would need to jump before you slipped too far, I definitely thought this in Lukasz frozen wastes stage of Turricane 3.5, great as that stage was, sinse that featured a lot of angled ledges, (and icy ones what is more), but no slipping. Above I suggested changing Turrican's walking speed and traction on ledges to simulate ice, slime or sand, well this would sort of be a similar idea.

I did wonder if the lack of a sliding animation for the Turrican sprite would cause problems, but then I realized it wouldn't be an issue sinse the standard jumping/falling animation of Turrican with bent knees would do just as well, or heck, you could just have Turrican slide downlwards in a standing position, the way mega man x 3 did. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting changing the actual angle of movement, Turrican's gun would still be facing right as usual, just effectively having an angle slope move Turrican increasingly downwards and to one side like a faster conveyer depending upon it's angle, I hope I explained this clearly enough.

Oh, and yes, angled slopes would also be awsome for the gyroscope too, imagine the final bounce down the many stair cases at the end of the bigworld level pack's first level, but having your wheel actually slide rather than just bounce off many angled steps.
Liam Fay
31.10.14
Interesting idea. While I'm no fan of Strider (I expressed my rather strong feelings towards it already) I will admit that's something I never thought of.

Slopes hare always something that Turrican has needed. In the original Turrican, in every version except for Amiga (I don't know about AST, haven't played that one a whole lot) the Alien levels had horrible slopes. Instead of just walking up on them, you had to jump up them. Unlike in other games, each pixel in Turrican is counted as a square platform. So you can't run up them - you have to jump up them. I think having a slope function would be great.

Another thing I recommend is view room. I know in all Turrican games (Except for ST2, that's one thing it did better than all the other games in the series) the camera lags behind the player. I'm fine with that, but in T2002 it's overdone to the point where I can't see literally anything in front of me. I like how the screen is zoomed out so you can see around you, but the camera lag is really distracting.
dark
01.11.14
Well counting each pixel as a tiny platform does have advantages as I said, and is part of what makes Turrican's platforming so unique, but I don't see why a specific slope function couldn't be added too, sinse your correct on alien stages, and that way if a level desginer wanted steps they could have steps, while if they wanted slopes they could have slopes too.

Strider does have it's issues, but slope mechanics were one thing it got right.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "View room" option. if you mean some sort of zoom out even further to see what's around you, that might work though I prefer the idea of a streight look up and down as I said, sinse the last thing you want is to reduce the exploration factor by giving a player too much information, and remember Turrican (unlike Metroid), doesn't have actual rooms, the entire environment structure is fluid.

I never personally minded the camera in T2002 accept when falling down as I said, however if you find it a problem there is probably an easier way to solve it, let the user specify in the conf file what scroll delay they want.

That is, when on scrolling portions of the level, how far Turrican can get towards the edge of the screen before it starts scrolling. Setting it to Zero will have turrican always in the center unless the screen is at the very edge, setting it a little higher will be like original Turrican, a little higher and have what we have now, while setting it higher still will mean you can get even further towards the edge of the screen.

I personally always like my game character in the dead center and like the screen to scroll as much as possiblee, while other's milage may vary, but this is why it's an interesting property for people to play with.

The very good Rocks n diamonds puzzle game engine (a game that can play all sorts of boulderdash, supaplex etc levels), has this function and i've found it a helpful one.
imagine having to fight the fist while air jets pull you up towards the ceiling and the fist tries to pound you into the ground!

Oh and yes, I am actually angling here for the new Turrican to turn into something of a powerful platform creation engine, just as Rocks n diamonds is a full tile based game creation engine, that's why I'd like to see people really able to play with objects and properties in the game, sinse I'd love
dark
16.01.15
Okay, I was just playing Bigworld and another idea occurred to me.Room transitions. What I mean is similar to Metroid, and some other games (mega man had them), instead of the screen scrolling at a specific rate, you could specify areas where you could get to the edge of the screen and the screen would scroll over automatically. It does this already in boss fights, auto scrolling the screen to get the boss in, but there are other places where it would be good. metroid style room labyrinths, (especially if combined with activatable elivators), or dramatic changes in environment in the same level, particularly if f music switching within levels could be addedd too.

In addition speaking of boss fights, here is a simple idea. Thus far, only the floating spaceship carries oneups, and then only two. Well, how about letting the level designer stick oneups and possibly power ups into whichever boss he/she wants?
Liam Fay
16.01.15
I like the idea, but it also adds in a slightly restrictive feel to the game - instead of having a huge, open world to explore, you would basically have a bunch of rooms. That's just my opinion, though.
dark
17.01.15
Well that would be dependent more on the level designer, which is why I suggested it as an area of scrolling rather than specifically designated room areas, sinse while you could! use it to create a bunch of rooms, it could also be used for major atmospheric changes within a single level. Lets say you create a level where you start off in the depth of a robot factory and fight your way out to the surface. It would make much more impact if instead of the surface transition just being a bog standard scrolling meaning you see it from a ways down, you take a lift up, get to the top of the screen and boom! you scroll down and suddenly find yourself under a wide open sky instead of in that claustrophobic metal factory.

As I've said before, changes in environment in a single level are something I love in Turrican sinse they give such a great feeling of exploring through a continuous world, and there are occasions those changes need to be more abrupt, ---- hec, T2 had to do a transition from overworld to caves in it's first level by dropping you down a waterfall.

I agree there would be a danger of the system being abused if a very dull minded level designer just created connected rooms and scrolled over one to another to another, but as I said it's about giving level designers the tools to work with, not necessarily predicting how they will be misused, heck some of the levels created for the current T2002 do not make full use of the Engine's capabilities either, --- *cough marsch *cough!
dark
06.02.15
Here is another suggestion, but quite a simple one. I was playing First Samurai on my Snes the other day, and as people might know when you die in that game you appear at the last force pot you activated. Well it occurred to me checkpoints where Turrican appears after death might have their uses in a Turrican game.
T2002 is generally very good about placing Turrican back on a level after death, even if you died by falling into an abyss you don't wind up in an impossible situation very often the way you do in say T4 Funeral.

The problem however is lots of level designers have created traps with lava, and to a lesser extent spikes that mean often turning up back where you died is pretty much guaranteed to lose you another life, (ruvfican I'm looking at you). Even if level designers place shield power upse in the lava, there is still a limit on how many shields can go down there, especially when your say trying to do a moving lift puzzle as in Metroidican and being forced to hang out in the lava until a lift comes back, (I confess it's at moments like that that I resort to the shield cheat).

One way to resolve this might be giving a shield after each life the way hurrican did, however there is probably another, more elligant way, that of checkpoints.

Let a level designer specify two checkpoints in the background of a level. After the player passes the first she/he will always respawn there post death until she/he passes the second. These don't have to actually be specified to the player on the level by any seenary (though they could be if the designer wished), however by say putting them either side of a lava pit or huge moving platform section over an abyss the designer could insure that the player always started where intended.

Additionally, these checkpoints could be used to create specific gauntlet sections of levels that the player had to pass in one life, which could be an extra change up of gameplay particularly if say larger enemies or fast scrolling backgrounds were introduced to create specific sorts of challenge, though of course such things would have to be used with caution.
Lukasz
09.02.15
Good thinking!
Liam Fay
11.02.15
I think that there could a choice when you die - the game could say "start where you died or at a checkpoint?" That way we could have the best of both worlds.
dark
12.02.15
I'm not sure about that Liam, after all Turrican is not like say metroid where you have one life and die and then choose where you restart. This idea was intended to let level designers not be restrained in putting in tough sections, but also keeping the difficulty fare by not putting you into an unwinable situation and wrecking your entire game. It also might result in just the same problem, like say you were jumping across a lava pit, and died close to the end of that section and so chose to restart where you died, but ended up falling into the drink and dying again without activating another checkpoint, of course the your position constantly, but also give you a choice but that could get needlessly complicated and result in lots of save file shenanigans.

My suggestion was just simply having checkpoints as a basic thing, not actual savepoints or anything too different from what we've seen before. When the player walks across checkpoint one, he/she will always respawn there after death until he/she walks across checkpoint two, after which back to normal.

There would even be no reason that say a level designer couldn't include more than one of each checkpoint around the same obstacle, like say if you had a lava pit that you could cross either on the high moving platforms above or on the static platforms below, the designer could include a checkpoint one at the start of the top and bottom routes and a checkpoint two at the end of both routes, meaning if the player fell off the top but made it across the bottom she/he would still have finished the lava section, (though perhaps might have missed some extra lives and other goodies up top).
dark
06.08.15
I have just finished running mega man X 1 and 2 (actually the first time I've finished X1 for quite a while, ---- woooo!), and another thought occurred to me.

In T2002 I believe there are only a few different sorts of projectile to play with for either enemies or bosses, they have a limited speech and appearence. This is wy the head boss doesn't have it's rolling ball and bouncing missile attack.

So, how about specifying a few sorts of standard shot and letting players mess about with them. Bouncing shots, different widths of laser, shots that creep the wall, a constant beam that blocks a passage, multi directional, shots that aime directly for you etc. This could help both with boss creation and with making normal enemies more interesting, particularly if as I hope more larger enemies will be in the game to use these sorts of shots.

This was the thing I realized about the X games, the enemies so often have their own unique attacks, and while obviously programming a huge number of specific enemies would be a pain, just being able to play with the attack type a bit would definitely change up gameplay, especially if you could change the attack type of a different enemy, for example those static laser firing cannons from 2-2 of T2 that fire their lasers could be a different thing entirely if firing spreadshots or bouncing shots.

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